Focal Point - Fanning the Fansubbing Flame War June 3
Okay, okay, this isn’t really a news-related editorial (even though I promised I would write them soon), but this is recent, and it’s probably going to storm across anime fandom on the internet, so I might as well respond to it here.
Watch the video before reading the following.
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Did you really watch all five parts (all 30 minutes) of it? No? Then go back and finish it. I’m not going to have people read this editorial in an uninformed fashion without having completely reviewed the source material (even though that’s precisely what the majority of internet people do). First of all, I must give kudos to this Paul “OtaKing” Johnson. It’s obvious that a lot of blood, sweat, and tears went into making that video (it took half a year, apparently). I genuinely found the entire experience entertaining: the original animation was well done (he’s a professional translator, folks, not a professional artist or video director), the video game references were satisfying, and that stereotypical snarky British wit was dead-on funny. I know a lot of people feel that he was being elitist, but he’s British! Complaining that a Brit sounds elitist is like complaining that Asians make everyone else look bad by working too hard. In addition, this guy is obviously a fan of anime who’s working in the anime industry. With all the unwarranted concern many FANS have of people in the anime industry NOT being FANS and mishandling their precious entertainment, I feel quite confident that a guy like this would ensure I get the quality anime I want when purchasing a commercial DVD, even though I disagree with him on some of the finer points of his so-called documentary (and it’s not a documentary – it’s a video editorial – because a proper documentary documents something impartially and allows the viewer to come up with their own opinions; damn you Michael Moore for changing this!). Now, I do agree with many of his arguments, which pretty much can be summarized by the idea that fansubbers do a lot of what they do as a way of stroking their e-penis. Granted, some fansubbers are trying to ensure that their work isn’t taken and manipulated without their permission (anyone else sensing some hypocrisy here?), like when an ebayer sells a fansub. Heck, before I knew better, back in the day, I would pay money to rent VHS fansubs from a local video store, even though the fansubs displayed the words “NOT FOR SALE OR RENT” in small print before the episode started (only when a friend pointed this out to my ignorant self one day did I stop renting from that particular store). Still, this does not justify the arrogant emblazoning of one’s name(s) and/or over-glorified typeset all over the main title screen, opening, and ending of an anime. Nor does it justify explaining so much of the story with on-screen notes that the natural and original flow of the narrative is destroyed. |
 MASS NAKED CHILD EVENTS! |
However, there are definitely some gray areas which OtaKing completely marginalizes (arguably, because he has to since he used the video editorial to make a point). While overly literal and sparsely localized translations are part of the weaboo culture of Japanophiles who like to intersperse Japanese with English (i.e. “That’s so kawaii!” or “You’re a baka!”), it is also an indication of someone who knows just enough Japanese that they do not want a jarring experience when reading a subtitle. Take for example how Japanese is “backwards” relative to English, both in the order of names and basic sentence structure. When a character says “Hirano Sakura desu” (a modified example from OtaKing’s video), it can be unsettling to read a subtitle that says “I am Sakura Hirano.” Potentially, even a person with no knowledge of Japanese would be able to recognize the sounds/syllables and realize that a set of them have been reversed. This is similar to the rewriting necessary when doing a dub (so that the words match the lip flaps); enjoyment of the show can be lost when a viewer feels something is amiss. Of course, a translator can take things too far and turn everyone into Yoda by being too literal with the translation: “Hirano Sakura I am.” This was the point OtaKing was trying to make with less obvious overly literal translations like “Even at a time like this.”
I also agree that it is contradictory to REGULARLY write out “onee-sama” or “onii-chan” in the subtitle while refusing to REGULARLY denote the differences in “boku” and “ore” when a character says “I,” not to mention all the different ways of saying “you” in Japanese. OtaKing criticizes the fansubbers for not working hard enough to be creative with their translations to get around such difficulties (and then uses an interesting example from Escaflowne to show how “Who the hell are you” and “Who the heck are you?” can denote the difference in harshness between “kisama” and “anata” and carry across the effect originally intended without just leaving it in Japanese). However, creative translations can only go so far. There are definitely times when the choice to use such Japanese words are a part of the story and MUST be pointed out. Plus, when it comes to idioms or language/culture-based jokes, the task of creative translations can be downright impossible. While I give great kudos to ADV’s work on Azumanga Daioh and its ability to culturally translate one of my most favorite jokes in the series (Osaka’s “Trivial/Bean Knowledge” into equally funny “Grains of Truth” joke), an unpaid and admittedly amateur translator doesn’t have the time and resources to consistently pull off something like that.
In regards to on-screen text, translation notes, and translation of signs, I agree that too much clutter can take away from an anime. If you can’t appreciate the serenity of a peaceful scene or follow the action of a fight scene due to the letters and characters flashing across the screen, then the subtitles are being done wrong. I did, however, have a problem with how OtaKing used examples from fansubs of Pani Poni Dash and Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei to validate his points here. In the original Japanese, there is a flurry of text that whizzes by at breath-taking scene, typically on a chalkboard (an identifying feature of many SHAFT studio works), such that a native Japanese viewer would have a hard time following it all. To me, the fansubbers were trying to reproduce that experience (a big point that OtaKing makes is that a translation should give the audience an experience as close as possible to the original). Sure, it becomes difficult to follow, because you are reading the spoken dialogue AND the original on-screen text in subtitles at the same time (I guess the only real way to solve that is to make a dub). However, a lot of good, hard work was put in by those fansubbers to offer the same effect to English anime fans that the original Japanese viewers had. Such fansubs (particularly a.f.k.’s fansubs of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei) would go so far as to composite English text directly over the Japanese text as a professional company might do. And if they weren’t composited, the good fansubbers try to insert the English text in as unobtrusively as possible, for which OtaKing criticizes them by questioning if the sign with original Japanese writing had English writing in it originally as well.
I don’t see anything wrong with this…
In fact, when pontificating how fansubs should be more professional, OtaKing somewhat contradicts himself in the comparison of the actual typeset versus translation. He makes a point that using small, unobtrusive text at the bottom of the screen provides a much better experience for the viewer, but not only that, it’s more professional AND LESS WORK than the colorfully distracting karaoke and special moves text made in Adobe After Effects. However, being more professional in the translation by localizing culture references and idioms to English requires MORE work. Still, if I look at it more logically, OtaKing is really complaining that fansubbers are willing to do more work to do something they want to do (make flashy texts that show off their computer graphical skills and are more easily recognized by the viewer) than to do something they don’t want to do (write a professional translation that won’t be recognized, since professional translations, according to all the academic sources OtaKing referenced, are SUPPOSED to be invisible and unrecognized).
Let’s be honest, folks: that’s just human nature. People are always willing to do more work for what they like than what they don’t like (after all, here I am putting off grading papers in order to write an editorial on an anime blog). So what’s the problem? Fansubs are free (at least they’re supposed to be), so why complain about what they’re doing? I remember in the early days of digital fansubbing that some groups would get completely lambasted for having poor video quality (it still happens today, I’m sure). My argument was (and still is), “You get what you pay for.” In addition, a small part of me thinks a “poor” fansub can be a good thing – it gives people a taste of the anime and possibly encourages them to buy the DVD. Don’t want an opening filled with fansubbers’ names, karaoke-effects, or even the credits for the original creators? Then buy the DVD with a clean opening.
I can’t wait to watch a clean opening of this!
Still, there is a bigger issue here that OtaKing did not even address in his video. This “cultural movement” is affecting the industry. Look at the commercially localized manga and anime of today and compare it to 8 years ago. The proliferation of retaining Japanese idiosyncrasies has been on the rise, from the preservation of right-to-left reading in manga to the use Japanese honorifics in a dub (like in Azumanga Daioh) — A DUB!. If OtaKing really has a problem with cluttered on-screen text, then he should check out the commercial release for Excel Saga with the AD-Vid notes turned on (granted, as a commercial DVD, one can turn off all those texts – I guess, one can make an argument that fansubbers should create a matroskva pack that allows their fansubs to have certain on-screen text, karaoke, and translation notes turn-off-able…). This is nothing more than economics at work, actually: there is a market for weaboos, and anime FANS should be happy that the anime industry is the one of the most responsive industries to their consumers out there. However, this market is somewhat gradually taking over, and that does not bode well for the industry. Allow me to explain.
Basically, there are three markets the anime industry is trying to target: fresh blood (people who have little to no knowledge of Japanese language, culture, and/or anime), FANS (people who have some knowledge and/or are overly excitable about anime or anything Japanese), and mature fans (people who have extensive knowledge and/or are mature in their views of fandom). Only FANS desire the “authenticity” of retaining honorifics, name order, and Japanese words that do have a decent English translation (i.e. shinigami can mean reaper). Fresh blood don’t know any better, and mature fans can deal with it, because while they know how it was “supposed” to be, they can understand why the translation went a particular way.
Not only do we have a “numbers dilemma” going on here (where potentially only one out of the three groups is selected for when producing localizations of anime), but that particular demographic group of FANS routinely refuses to pay for commercial anime in the first place! They get everything they need out of fansubs, and they revel in their cliquey obtuse weaboo culture. The anime industry cannot sustain itself on a group of people who are only interested in anime because it’s different and allows them to speak in ways that alienates everyone (actual conversation overhead at an anime convention: “Wai! Tobi-chan! I’m so happy to see you! You’re SO kawaii in that cosplay!”), because eventually such a group (which was undoubtedly be small to begin with) will lose interest and focus on something else that is different and clashes with social norms. This also explains why there are always such huge reactions from FANS to the professional translations and localizations that OtaKing advocates: they don’t want their underground hobby to become mainstream. I’m sorry, but one should not like anime SOLELY because it’s different – that’s what we’d call a fad.
But maybe I’m being overly paranoid. As a teacher, I’ve witnessed firsthand the assimilation of all things Japanese into the youth of today. Ironically enough, maybe the integration of Japanese and English (both language and culture) will become more mainstream in and of itself, and that will generate a demographic large enough to sustain the industry that produces the wonderful entertainment we enjoy. I mean, it’s not like the anime industry is in trouble…or is it…?
- Natron-e?
who is enjoying roasting some popcorn over the flame fest
googleman at 7:35 pm on June 3rd, 2008
look i watch all of these parts like ya said. And true he makes some good points but in away he kinda hating. personally i dont care how they translate with all the specail effects and stuff as long as i understand wha going on sheesh aint got ot make a big fuss on what they did in teh old day and what they do now even though ya ca take a few pointers but it all come it all come down to being able to understand what is happening in anime and what the character are saying. He kinda piss me off but he still make some sense but the part about changng the actually daiglog and changing it i didnt agree with that. Anyway in the end like i say and personally for me aint give a damn all i want is that i understand what they are saying and i mean ppl might not be showing off i highly doubt it translators just want you to understand what certain pharases mean and to learn a little japanese in the process.
P.S I like it when one piece use flashy subtitles for attacks i find it quite cool
Kageho at 7:37 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Natron-e? that was a pretty good article. I thought it was pretty good, and I do conceed that OtaKing had some very good points as well. I thoroughly enjoyed this. At first when I watched the video I was expecting something very bad, but it was very concise for the most part. I don’t agree with everything OtaKing thinks (you actually hit the points I don’t, and answered pretty much how I feel), but I get his view.
Nanatsuya at 7:47 pm on June 3rd, 2008
I agree with our dearest OtaKing on pretty much all of his points. Albeit, I also agree that text (such as the example above) should be translated.
This is the problem in anime now, otakus are dwindling while weeabos are growing. No longer is anime “for fun” but rather a chance for the weeabo populace to give their epeens a weekly stroke.
I find it kinda funny that OtaKing found some bottom barrel fansubs to illustrate his point.
@Natrone, I’m amazed you still have some old AJ crap-subs. The “Dethroned Princess” was my favorite of their failures.
Eh at 7:48 pm on June 3rd, 2008
It’s funny you post a screenshot of Macross Frontier when there are two sub groups which do the show entirely softsubbed, so with one keystroke you actually _can_ watch a clean opening.
Haesslich at 7:49 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Gattai DID make clean openings of it (as gg does now)… but they’re in the minority these days. The main issue I have with him is mostly how he comes across as displaying his e-Penis as badly as the fansubbers he criticizes. Some jokes don’t carry over (Azumanga Daioh was particularly bad about this), which required either extensive translator notes (which appeared in the manga) or translation of the jokes to English equivalents (which also happened in the manga and anime)… but sometimes they miss the point, or leave the joke out completely, by literally translating it (or not), as ADV did with the ukoncha/chinsuko jokes in Azumanga. Those jokes were explained with a small TL note in the fansubs, which helped me appreciate why Yomi was embarassed by Tomo’s repetitions of what ended up being dirty words… a point that didn’t come across with ADV’s rendition.
I do agree some honorifics don’t carry across well, due to the way English is structured. Adding ‘neesama’ to every sentence, or ‘de-arimasu’ untranslated can be a problem. Especially when they’re added to the end of EVERY sentence they’re used in, which can be rather annoying to read (especially if the speaker is Keroro from Keroro Gunso or Wilhemina from Shakugan no Shana, both of which use ‘de-arimasu’ an awful lot). One way to rework or reword their sentences is to make them stilted… which creates its own problems in readability (see the way Shampoo gets translated in the Ranma tapes/DVDs).
All things in moderation is the only thing I can preach: one thing that DOES bother me about the way ADV translated Azumanga is that they basically gave Osaka a ‘New York Italian’ accent to emphasize how the Osakan accent sounds different from Kansai’s… but in doing so really screwed up the feel of the character, since it breaks the suspension of belief that this is about Japanese schoolgirls. You don’t need to localize EVERY piece of a translation, which is a point I feel some translators miss - the xXxHolic translation is probably among the best Del Rey’s put out, because they don’t try to localize the material too much, and leave copious notes in the back to explain the references that they chose not to… while not adding ‘-sensei’ or ‘-kun’ to every line.
Haesslich at 7:54 pm on June 3rd, 2008
‘honorifics’ and ‘linguistic quirks’ even.
Selenite at 7:55 pm on June 3rd, 2008
The guy made valid points but using SZS as an example?… *shakes head* Also, most people won’t have problems with onee-san and etc, even if they are new to anime/manga. Many anime/manga fans find them cute and only a small minority would rage over their use. Then, some of the problems can be addressed with soft subs, which some groups are beginning to use. People are then allowed to choose how they want their anime to be translated.
Well for the most part I agree with Natrone. Awesome read, 30 minutes well spent :).
AznLegacy at 7:59 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Well, that was entertaining! I have to say some things made a lot of sense, but at the same time I think he was just just being a little too anal~ >_< Otaking wasn’t wrong, its just sometimes you have to be FLASHY. I mean we watch anime to be entertained. O_o
BaphometClass at 8:04 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Good article, and good video as well, this OtaKing guy knows his stuff. I can just imagine a bunch of pale-faced, basement-dwelling fanfreaks raging about how wrong his is, and how stupid he is for daring to criticize fansubbers.
Weeaboos are surely on the shallow end of the gene-pool, get me some chlorine before they type another ” ^_^ ” smiley.
dojikyo at 8:04 pm on June 3rd, 2008
I’d have to see I agree with most of the video.
dojikyo at 8:06 pm on June 3rd, 2008
edit: please replace see with “say” or “write”.
ruinevil at 8:09 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Anyways… people have to realize that digital fansubs is derived more from Warez roots than old VHS fansubs. It’s all about stroking the E-penis. Screw translational integrity. Almost no anime fansub translators I’ve talked to does it professionally. Most of them are engineers or in college training to be one. >_>
Whim at 8:13 pm on June 3rd, 2008
I like Del Rey’s work in general. If I have a choice between two mangas that I know nothing about, and one is by Del Rey, I’d usually choose it (not that I have that kind of money to throw around; I’d rather research first).
It certainly seems like Natron-e?’s opinions coincide with a lot of mine. I would have loved to get angry about the way OtaKing used Zetsubou Sensei in his video, but everything I was mad about was already pointed out. I really think that was just a miss on his part. Too much of that show requires explaining, and thanks to the fact that it’s a fan-sub, it’s possible to pause and rewind the show to catch what the blackboard and such said (something that a native Japanese person watching the show on TV would always have the luxury of doing). Of course, I can’t disagree that to someone that either disliked or didn’t watch that show, the screens he took from it would be extremely convincing.
Melchior at 8:13 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Excellent editorial.
But my God, did that video make me furious. While the pretentious British accent should be discounted, there were definitely some very clear moments of unnecessarily vitriolic mocking.
My major gripes with the video mostly come from how exaggerated the “examples” OtaKing chose.
1. As you pointed out, Pani Poni Dash, Zetsubo Sensei, and other reference filled shows are really poor choices for cluttering liner notes. There are *far* too many gags and references that need explaining and come far too fast to possible be able to read from a booklet and understand, much less have time to actually enjoy. In a booklet, the lag time towards getting a joke would make the lines even less funny, as if someone explained a joke to you an hour later. Reading ahead of time is not an option, as that would basically be spoiling yourself.
2. Worse, OtaKing specifically chose Pani Poni Dash of all series. Guess what? gg Fansubs translated the whole series with liner notes in pdf format rather than subbing in notes! I did not think they worked all that well for me, but they were very thorough and added a lot to the series upon the second viewing.
Generalizations, exaggerations, and a clear lack of research continue in the video.
3. One Piece is the worst possible example of over stylized subtitles for techniques in-series. I don’t watch One Piece, but I can say with a fair amount of confidence that the first time I’ve ever seen that particular practice done was in *this* video, and all the examples are from one fansub group.
4. I do appreciate your and to a lesser extent his pointing out the hypocrisy in leaving in all the suffixes -san, -chan, etc, while not bothering to differentiate between the various forms of first person pronouns. There simply is no analog in english, and translating them all to “I” is an unfortunate evil. It would be incredibly awkward to leave them in, though you lose a great deal of meaning in that blanket translation.
5. Using Trinity Blood as an example at all. No series leaves out more detail all the time. I dislike the series a great deal, and the subbers that translated it *were* very obtrusive.
6. My other complaint is his issue with “plain font.” According to OtaKing, all professional releases are in plain font. Well…all “professional” releases also are on DVD. DVD’s have to live up to a certain standard to be able to have their subtitles appear on every possible configuration and manufacture of DVD playback hardware. Fansubs require the necessary codecs, which are far easier for the average user to obtain than say…and update capable optical disk player (nowadays, there is only one widely available, the PS3). So fansub groups go a little nuts with it sometimes, I can concede that. But if you look at dvd-rips from the Japanese disks, when those are fansubbed, particularly the .ogg format (replaced by the font-capable .mkv) the fansubs are all in (surprise surprise) “plain text.”
Mostly, I saw this video as a lot of exaggeration and spin to prove a point that isn’t really there. So basically, it’s just like any cable news broadcast or blog. A lot of sensationalizing and narrow scope to prove a point, incite some emotions (congrats, OtaKing succeeded), and make the statement at the same time. There are a lot of fansubbers that display some (and ALL) of the issues OtaKing mentioned. But there are an equal number that have either cleaned up their ways, improved a lot, or *always* translated “professionally.”
There’s more to be said, but I’ve written a lot already for a comment.
Whim at 8:14 pm on June 3rd, 2008
*would not have the luxury
Samurai Pumpkin at 8:18 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Dear Lord, forgive me but I could not bear watching over the past 3 videos.
Yeah I remember what the anime was like back when Dial-up was high tech. He had some nice insight on that stuff but…
… as he starts criticizing the other fansubbing groups you can almost feel his hate growing. As of the end of video 3 it seemed much more like a rant than an informed discussion.
I do however recognize how he had some valid points. Fansubbing anime is not about flashy effects and fansubbing groups nowadays are including text files with translation notes on either the torrent itself or on their homepage/irc channel with descriptions.
I don’t t hink that I would be able to enjoy shows like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, which is very kanji heavy, without those on screen notes. You’d end up having a several page section for each episode and who is going to really read and remember all of that as you are watching the anime.
While you should aim to give the viewer as much of a similar experience as possible to the original product the viewer should not have to read several pages of cliff notes beforehand to understand it either. Otherwise even though the dialog may be in English the entire episode may as well be in Japanese since most of the intrigue is in the dialog and content therein. Basically if you don’t know the language you have to sacrifice something to get a similar experience.
The people that really have a love will study Japanese. Everybody has time to learn 1 extra language at their own pace.
Typesetting definitely has it’s own place. Take for example episode 1 of School Days done by Conclave. In the beginning when Itou and Sekai are writing each other notes it is much easier to understand the conversation because of the superb typesetting. If plain typesetting was used their it would be very difficult to follow what is going on.
The part about making ones group name larger than the actual anime name is true though.. and the ego that goes around. I used to work in AonE and once asked why they had put a AonE (c)opywrite logo next to the Sunrise(c) logo… it just does not make sense. There is a lot of internal competition that goes on in a fansubbing group. People do not want to lose their role to a new guy that has shown some promise with some flashy effects.
Like the video creator said it is about ego. Everybody wants to be the best, it is human nature.
hilder at 8:20 pm on June 3rd, 2008
Before any of you start questioning his competence as a translator, here is his CV:
*Link removed*
Sorry, but that’s a bit too personal for my taste. The man requested his CV be removed from here, so I think we should honor that, even though he has yet to directly request that of me.
- Natron-e?
Melchior at 8:20 pm on June 3rd, 2008
I guess to narrow down my point, between the overly narrow view, the limited examples that OtaKing took, and the lack of research (the gg fansub PPD pdf files really rankled with me) the whole video just seems to, hypocritically enough, lack professionalism.
rc at 8:28 pm on June 3rd, 2008
I agree somewhat with the video.
It sounds a LOT better, to use “soul reaper”, than “shinigami”.
Natrone at 8:32 pm on June 3rd, 2008
@Eh
If you were reading the sentence that came before that Macross Frontier picture, you would realize that I was specifically referring to original creators’ credits. In other words, for that particular shot during the opening, I wish to see the Valkyrie transform without knowing what the name of the original song is, who wrote it, and who sang it (there’s also that linked shot of Shibusen from Soul Eater, for which I also desire a clear view without seeing the original Japanese credits).
@Selenite
I’m not so much worried about new fans being “enraged” by the use of onee-san, etc., insomuch as I’m worried about them being confused and deciding to forego a budding interest in anime due to inaccessibility.
@Samurai Pumpkin
If you didn’t watch the very end (the end of the 5th video), you’re missing out on when he implies he knows he’s ranting (with that oh-so-wonderful tongue-in-cheek British wit)….