FreezeFrame: A Key Paradigm Shift March 19
Ok, let’s get the obvious out of the way first:
KyoAni did a fabulous job with Kanon. As usual, the technical aspects of the anime were all top-notch, the directing was solid, the voice acting award-worthy. Each character was unique, their stories significant, and in the end, quite memorable. Kanon 2006 was successful in distinguishing itself from not only the original Kanon but also Haruhi, which was an initial foreboding I had in the earlier episodes. I honestly believe that it was pretty much the absolute best anybody could have done in making Kanon, or any harem anime, for that matter.
That said…
I think it’s a total waste of ability and resources. A studio of KyoAni’s caliber shouldn’t be doing harem shows, which have traditionally just been there for the sake of showing off some more girls in maid outfits or nekomimi or some other ridiculous stuff like that. Not that I don’t appreciate it – it’s just something I feel is better left to the “lesser” studios and not the oharuhiliness that is Kyoto Animation. If my understanding is correct, the main reason they picked up Kanon was because of the success of their initial venture into the visual novel genre, AIR.
The way I see it, it’s like if Studio Ghibli decided they would make more money doing hentai. What if Totoro’s fat tail was on the front side of his body? What if Kiki used her broom for more than just transportation? What if “Laputa” actually meant “La Puta”? Could Ghibli have done it? Sure. But did they go ahead with cheap flattery and quick indulgences to make a quick yen? No way – they took their time to craft masterpiece after masterpiece that audiences around the world have held in the highest regard. In that same way, I’ve always hoped that KyoAni would start picking up material of a higher “moral standard” (I like using that one). I keep referring back to Haruhi because it was a perfect marriage of script and studio – the novels are fantastically written, the anime fantastically realized and produced. Kanon, while being one of the most serious and dramatic hgames, is still held back by the whole concept of these games – to play through the storyline of each girl and experience all the “perks” that come with a developing relationship.
If you step back and look at it, the way all the individual and separate storylines were tied together was by the whole “yume…” blurb at the beginning of the episodes. It’s a weak connection – but then again, it’s probably the best thing anybody could have done to bring some unity to an otherwise disjointed series about a bunch of girls who would have had no contact with each other if not for this one guy.
But enough ranting. Here’s the chaser – no matter how I, or any of us may feel about Kanon, the fact remains that it was a superbly produced series, one that I believe may finally put the traditionally indulgent harem genre into the realm of sanity and integrity. For the first time, I can actually take one of these shows seriously. And it took 24 episodes for the king of TV anime to pull it off.
I guess, in other words, I finally get it.
CLANNAD? I’ve never played it or even heard of it outside that it’s another one of KEY’s works – but if KyoAni is doing it, we may as well start penciling it in as the best anime of the season.
In the meantime, Lucky Star is going to rock, you can bank on that.
-jaalin
deltazechs at 1:37 pm on March 20th, 2007
I will simply watch anything created by Kyoto Animation. Continuation of FMP would be nice, but I am always open to material I’ve never seen before.
And wow, if KyoAni keeps it up, will we be seeing at least one KyoAni every season? Cause so far it feels like they haven’t rest yet since last year April, they’ve been chunking out series one after another. Now that is awesome.
Shippoyasha at 2:18 pm on March 20th, 2007
I actually don’t think it’d be bad if KyoAni tries to make a fanservice-y harem for once. If anybody can pull it off well even in the genre’s conventions, KyoAni definitely could.
Tolitz at 4:54 pm on March 20th, 2007
Haha, reading this thread, I can just imagine all FMP junkies going emo and doing the “silent scream” effect in their bedrooms…
To all those baka who downplay harem just coz they can’t get their FMP fetish going, this does not mean KyoAni is NEVER gonna do an FMP series EVER AGAIN. All these “omg, KyoAni is gonna do another silly harem, and will NEVER do FMP again, *sob sob* *emo emo*” is seriously making me crack up…
Considering that it took KyoAni more than two years to follow up Fumoffu with TSR, some of you people are just so damn impatient that you slam everything you don’t like - akin to whiny little five-year-olds who wrecks everything coz he’s not getting his favorite toy.
And for that, we who enjoy “great, fun anime” as opposed to limiting ourselves to pseudo-sophisticated-brainfart series are indeed rubbing it in to you people. We are having fun… the KyoAni train is on a roll… get on or get out of the way
- T
cbhl at 5:19 pm on March 20th, 2007
To those who say that FMP was a better utilization than Kanon: Frankly, I haven’t watched FMP at all, and so my personal, uninformed status is that FMP itself was closest of all to being any “waste of resources” (if there was such a thing — IMO, there wasn’t). That said, I haven’t watched FMP, so my opinion is probably too biased to be worth anything. (I might want to see if there’s a copy to watch somewhere… Hmm…)
To everyone else: I think everyone is entitled to their opinion — jaalin has presented a reasonably objective statement of his opinion… although I notice the lack of the “Omni disclaimer” in this post compared to the October one he linked to… (I wonder… Is this because we’ve figured out by now that jaalin does these, or is it because jaalin forgot?) I liked Kanon, but that said, I don’t think I want to see another episode of Kanon (in its current form) ever again. *shrugs* And yes, businesses tend to first look at the people sitting outside the window… THEN they might consider overseas buyers. (Think Microsoft/X360 and Japan. AFAIK, they don’t mix that well.) Anyways, I’m looking forward to the North American DVDs of Suzumiya Haruhi… I hope I can afford them by the time they come out, though. ^^”
nowhere man at 5:54 pm on March 20th, 2007
I wonder if I’m the only one who thinks Kyoto Animation is overrated…? Just because they produced Haruhi Suzumiya, everyone praises them as one of the best animation studios around. Personally, I think BONES and J.C. Staff are better. Well, they’ve made shows I enjoy more than KyoAni.
FireChick at 6:39 pm on March 20th, 2007
Yay! I never got to finish Kanon (both original AND remake) yet but I will soon! I’m gonna see Lucky Star and Clannad! Besides, Tsukasa, Konata and Kagami look really cute in their anime designs! For some reason Nagisa looks alot like Ayu.
DG04 at 6:50 pm on March 20th, 2007
I believe most people consider Kyoto Animation to be one of the best animation studios around is because of the production quality in the shows they produce. The detail they put into the scenes and even the things in the background. A few examples are say compare the band and dance scenes in School Rumble season 2, the animation in there are mostly just stills and pans of the characters, then compare that to the Enoz concert in Haruhi and the dance scene in Kanon. It is a matter of personal opinion whether or not a studio is “the best around” but Kyoto Animation is hardly “overrated” by any standards. Even if you do not consider it the best they are still one of the best out there.
As for Bones and J.C. Staff, certainly they have produced alot of quality anime, but by the same measure they have also produced animes that I personally did not especially enjoy. Try as I might I never got into Ayakashi Ayashi from Bones and to be honest the J.C. Staff adaptation of Fate/stay night was a tad disappointing in my eyes.
Omni at 8:21 pm on March 20th, 2007
although I notice the lack of the “Omni disclaimer” in this post compared to the October one he linked to… (I wonder… Is this because we’ve figured out by now that jaalin does these, or is it because jaalin forgot?)
It is because you should have figured it out by now that these are jaalin’s opinions.
jaalin at 11:22 pm on March 20th, 2007
Kanon really does bring out the worst in me, doesn’t it? I guess that’s what makes it great
This is probably the best FF thread we’ve had - a lot of you have put out really solid arguments. For sure, I understand my position is a “bit” on the biased side - after all, the origins of the harem genre stem from whacky fanservice shows like Love Hina and the more “mature” Ai Yori Aoshi, but I believe there has been a constant evolution from just showcasing cute girls and their antics to one that is less indulgent and more plot driven rather. KyoAni’s Kanon is what I feel finally pushed the genre “over the hump” - hence the title of the post.
Of course, labeling Kanon as a harem show is another cause for concern. I do this for two specific reasons - one, no matter how you pull and twist at it, it follows many of the elements of traditional harem shows (shuffle, da capo) - you know, with the character setups and relationship dynamics; and two, because of the market where the original product was introduced. No, being a harem show was never a bad thing, but being a part of a market where, as Lawson stated somewhere on page 1, having sex scenes is expected. To me, that’s just “ridiculous” - fortunately, these scenes were not what propelled Kanon. As with many great shows that sit atop their competitors, they are able to transcend the generic standards set by their predecessors. By doing so while remaining so successful, I believe KyoAni Kanon has set a new standard for which future shows in the harem genre can aspire to. Maybe fanservice was just a passing fad, Kanon being the start of a new paradigm in the genre.
Which is why I’m really looking forward to what KyoAni can do with CLANNAD - how much further can this genre be pushed? Kanon had its weak spots, namely the disjointedness of the different storylines (which ultimately kept reminding me of the whole “harem” of it all), and my hope is that this will no longer be the case in CLANNAD.
As for Haruhi - cmon guys! It’s so much easier to enjoy than Kanon, which constantly tosses five ton emotional snowballs at its audience. It’s like the lighthearted fun you have spinning the teacups at Disneyland, versus the nauseating yet exhilarating Kanon Splash Mountain. Oh well - whatever suits your taste
Dameyo at 2:19 am on March 21st, 2007
I would like to see Kyoani to take another Toei anime and remake them like they did with Kanon; or at least “compete” with the same anime (don’t know how to phrase it correctly) such as Air or Clannad (Toei doing the movies and Kyoani with the movies, respectively). An Air Gear remake (forget a 2nd season) anyone?
As for Kanon being a harem anime, I cannot (cannot, not do not) see how Kanon 2006 can relate to other harem such as Love Hina, Da Capo, Ai Yori Aoshi, Shuffle, etc. Just like how I cannot say that Yuuichi 2006 is like Keitaro. Yuuichi 2002, however, imo I can relate him to Keitaro. If Kanon 2006 is a harem, then it is the harem that I cannot find.
Question: how big of a company is Kyoani right now? I’m not talking particularily about popularity (because I know the answer), but more of financially or company size and stuff.
Does anyone else here think that a person from Kyoani or someone affliated (friends, spouse, family member, etc) with a Kyoani staff member is lurking through these fansites and forums and taking it into account peoples posts, opnions, etc? Some of fans wish came true such as picking up a tv series of Clannad and Kanon, or even the dance scenes in the episode where Yuuichi held the party for shiori, etc.
BOZZ at 3:11 am on March 21st, 2007
Quite an interesting discussion here relating to Kyoto Animation and their recent projects. As has been already mentioned KyoAni is doing these projects to make money, so far their recent works are somewhat in the same field, why would they continue doing that? Because they are making money from developing works that they caters to the fanbase of their previous works.
I had no problem watching Kanon 2006, I remember watching the Toei edition in 2003 and how painstaking it was to watch it (I absolutely hated the character designs), but I had read good things about Kanon and gave it a try. The one thing that I truly enjoyed about KyoAni doing a remake was they were fleshing out character backstories that Toei either totally ignored or quickly went through.
Having read a bit of the Clannad manga and reading some bits and pieces on the Clannad wikipedia entry all I can do is look forward to their adaptation and know fully well that it will be amazing.
I am surprised no one mentioned the one critical thing that makes a harem anime a harem anime, that being that the main character has no redeeming quality initially, he’s generally quite a bit of a loser.
Rasmiel at 10:32 am on March 21st, 2007
>>I am surprised no one mentioned the one critical thing that makes a harem anime a harem anime, that being that the main character has no redeeming quality initially, he’s generally quite a bit of a loser.
So was AIR not harem? I’m sooooooo confused!!
Yukito was a loser. He had no home, no money, and made his imaginary living by using his special power (which is to give life to a doll). He sucked so bad he could barely make enough money for a satisfying meal.
I disagree with the main character being a loser in a harem anime though. Look at Kage kara Mamoru, that show was definitely harem but Mamoru was pretty much a kickass ninja with super pretty boy-ish face under his dorky glasses.
BOZZ at 11:15 am on March 21st, 2007
Still who actually liked Mamoru (from KKM) for his bas ass ninja skills? I think there was like only one (or maybe even two) character who might have.
When I said loser I meant more along the lines of the archetype of harem leads, Tenchi Masaki and characters like Keitaro from Love Hina. Another thing is that harem titles seem to be, a little on the series side in terms of the story, that’s how I don’t see things like Air as harem titles whereas eroge anime adaptations like Tsuyokiss on the other hand fit more of the role of a harem series.
BOZZ at 11:47 am on March 21st, 2007
I meant to say “serious side” not “series side”, my bad…
DG04 at 4:12 pm on March 21st, 2007
>>>Whaaaat? Was anyone seriously disputing Kanon’s position as a harem show? THE MAIN DUDE HAS LIKE SEVEN GIRLS WHO WANT IN HIS PANTS AND THE FOCUS OF THE SHOW IS HIM PICKING ONE OF THEM. The end.
What? I thought the focus of the show was about Yuuichi’s relationship with all those girls and the small miracles that happen in his life. I certainly didnt see the “seven girls who want in his pants” as supposedly the focus of the show. I see Kanon as more of a drama with harem elements, otherwise we might as well as label Code Geass a harem considering Kallen and Shirley are more blatent about wanting in Lulu’s pants and all the sister con undertones. If you choose to only see one aspect of a show and ignore the others then you are not seeing the whole picture for what it really is.
>>>As for Haruhi - cmon guys! It’s so much easier to enjoy than Kanon, which constantly tosses five ton emotional snowballs at its audience. It’s like the lighthearted fun you have spinning the teacups at Disneyland, versus the nauseating yet exhilarating Kanon Splash Mountain. Oh well - whatever suits your taste
While Haruhi is an easier watch, especially for the casual anime watcher then something that is emotionally heavy like Kanon, I personally rate Kanon’s story telling a few notches higher. Haruhi is great for what it is, a light comedy and I certainly enjoyed watching it every week, however one cannot deny that it is still a fairly shallow anime relying on the situational humor that Haruhi and her unique personality brings about. Ofcourse I have read the novels and yes the plot does start to develope somewhat and the characters do slowly start to develope but just looking at the anime gives you very little in anything besides comedy.
I am curious about one thing though(ok few things actually lol). If anime like Kanon are such a waste of Kyoto Animation’s resources, then what would be considered a good use of resources? How can an anime be considered a waste of resource or unworthy of Kyoto Animation if it is a well written, plot and character driven emotional story?
lolikit at 4:46 pm on March 21st, 2007
>>I see Kanon as more of a drama with harem elements, otherwise we might as well as label Code Geass a harem considering Kallen and Shirley are more blatent about wanting in Lulu’s pants and all the sister con undertones. If you choose to only see one aspect of a show and ignore the others then you are not seeing the whole picture for what it really is.
I consider Kanon a romance-drama with harem elements… unless your vision of drama is so different from mine, how is that not a harem show? ^_^;; I’m not trying to look at only one aspect really. I see the main character, I see that all that “happens” is him interacting with a comparably vast cast of female characters, I think “harem.” Maybe I didn’t get Kanon at all!
FortMan at 5:15 pm on March 21st, 2007
@Son Gohan
I just pointed out that the definition of harem anime you have posted didn’t work so well here, that’s all.
I think some of us need to separate Key’s Kanon from Kyoani’s Kanon here. Sure, there’re more female characters in the show, but U1 only get romantically involved with one of them. (I don’t think he even notice Nayuki’s attraction to him yet) Heck, H&C Mayama would be more “harem” male lead than Kyoani’s U1, with him winning the hearts of two ladies and all. (Not that I think he is, just to point out how fleeting categorizations are sometime)
DG04 at 7:35 pm on March 21st, 2007
@lolikit
I believe its a matter of having a differant opinion on harem shows. I see harem shows as stories where the main or atleast a good deal of conflict and “suspense” comes from which girl the male lead will pick, and sometimes the main draw of the series is excessive fanservice. To me, if you label a show by a genre like harem, mecha or action means that that is the main focus and draw of the show, certainly Kanon has harem elements but hardly a central focus, as opposed to the emotional drama. My comment in my previous post was not really directed at you but rather just generally to people biased against Kanon solely for the reason of it being percieved as a harem title.
psgels at 8:12 pm on March 21st, 2007
I couldn’t agree with you more, Jaalin. Kyoani can produce some interesting visual effects and animation, but it feels just wasted on these “moe-shows”, as I like to call them. I don’t know about how others feel about this, but I’d rather view a political drama like Saiunkoku Monogatari than see a guy who keeps hitting on every single girl he sees, like in Kanon. Okay, I only saw the first ten episodes, but they were enough to convince me that the show was trying too hard to attempt some drama, up to the point where Makoto’s final scenes became just annoying.
The things that annoy me about harems is that it’s too standard of a formula. We always have one guy and a number of girls who cling around him. Code Geass could also be considered a harem, but luckily it features more important characters than just the main characters and his “haremettes”. Most (emphasis on most) harems I also checked out (which are quite a few, actually) were also full of illogical plot events. After seeing a female fall in love with the main character for no apparent reason for the umpth time, I really lost my faith in this genre.
DrmChsr0 at 5:14 am on March 22nd, 2007
Blahblahblahblah FUCK.
jaalin, go play planetarian, then look at your words.
I swear you’ll look at Kanon in a different light.
It is very obvious that your hate for VisualArts/Key is making you see things in a different light than others.
If you’re a floogin’ Harutard (which I think you are), well, disregard. You’re too steeped in your obsession to even think about trying something new.